<div dir="ltr">Ben's advice is so minimal, maybe he can explain some more? Why is any choice fine? <div><br></div><div>It sounds like we think we are deciding between having an Ordinance with teeth or not, which feels huge, and I don't know the necessary, legal wording to make teeth.<div>
<br></div><div>Good luck to you who do, please write it well.</div><div><br></div><div>Andy</div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Patricia Norris <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:PatriciaNorris@comcast.net" target="_blank">PatriciaNorris@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>1. We do have the majority, in fact
the entire CRNMC list, receiving this discussion.<br>
2. We as a group are the only ones who can make the decision.<br>
3. Karina is working on this, Caitlin looking into it, and I
think the point is, we need a <u>viable</u>, not just a finished,
ordinance.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
Patricia<br>
<br>
</font></span></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">I can not support a motion to delay the process of
getting the ordinance on the ballot because:
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. We do not have a majority of the CRNMC presently in this
discussion</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>2. The group of people who are presently in the discussion
have no authority to make a decision of this nature.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>3. No one has worked with the county to establish a
definitive amount of days that our process of signature
gathering will be delayed if the ordinance is resubmitted to
the county. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So how can a well informed decision be made by anyone ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My personal bottom line is that no matter what happens in
this matter, I will do my best to gather endorsements and
signatures to bring our ordinance to the ballot.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Blessed Be</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In Deed !</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Baile</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So a few people are working to make <br>
<div>
<div>On Apr 24, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Caitlin Alexander wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">We are moving forward now, why things were
or were not done in the past is not relevant or helpful
to decisions that need to be made now. We are rushed and
no one is perfect, that is your answer, seems obvious.
All of the other points you've brought up have been
discussed and when you have something new and
constructive to add please post that instead. <br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Apr 24, 2014 at 3:51
PM, Baile Oakes <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:baileoakes@gmail.com" target="_blank">baileoakes@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">I missed this
in the final draft. My understanding was that the
fine was to be the highest allowed by law.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please help me understand why Barry's advice
was not followed before we submitted the
ordinance for approval.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Seems that a few people are really strong on
this change.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Where were these comments when we were asked
for any changes that needed to be made to the
draft?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Color me confused and a bit concerned about
process.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All I hear is "maybes" about the timing of
this change. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The timing needs to known.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The reality of extension of signature
gathering needs to be known.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Otherwise we are once more being asked to
make a non-informed decision that could very
well threaten getting what we have on to the
ballot</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>with love and respect,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>baile</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Apr 24, 2014, at 1:13 PM,
karinajoy wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">You
really think it's worth passing an
ordinance that allows a judge to snub
his nose at us by giving an offender a
$1/day fine? or probation? What kind
if disincentive is that? They could
just come in anyway and pay the puny
fine. If we're going to work our butts
off gathering signature, don't we want
the ordinance to actually do it's job?
<div>K</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Apr 24, 2014, at 12:57 PM,
Baile Oakes wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">I will vote no
on this.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Tim seems to agree.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have more than 11
people in our organization.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We do not have a process
in place to make a rush
decision that represents the
will of the full CRNMC. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A lot of people think we
are ready to gather
signatures.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is no definitive
word of how long the process
of amending will take.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Shannon still has not
heard back from Ben
regarding this matter.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We need all the time we
can get to gather
signatures.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We have a good ordinance</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A Great Step Forward</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>, not perfect, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>what is ?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>let's move forward with
signatures and endorsements
and get going.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The clock is ticking</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>yep</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Baile</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Apr 24, 2014, at
11:45 AM, karinajoy
wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Want you to know,
even if we change
sec.4, it may add
only a few days to
our process (they
have 15 days, but I
may be able to speed
that up, since the
title and summary
will not change).
Everything else is
ready to move
forward, with the
minor change to the
ordinance language -
the newspaper
publication is
ready; the petition
is ready; the Letter
of Intent won't
change. We're ready
to open the bank
account and file
form 410. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The sooner we
come to an
agreement, the
sooner we can start
the clock again. I
am prepared to drive
to the county today
and resubmit the
Ordinance.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So far out of 15
responses, 11 have
been to go ahead and
change sec 4a. The
other 4 did not say
no. Opinion on 4b
is 50-50.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Anyone´else have
a strong opinion?</div>
<div>K</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div>On Apr 23,
2014, at 11:52
PM, karinajoy
wrote:</div>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><span style="font-size:15px">Sisters
and Brothers,</span>
<div style="font-size:15px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:15px">A
small but
crucially
significant
problem
regarding our
Ordinance has
arisen. It can
be solved if
we act now. It
will cause
some delay,
but it is
better we fix
the problem
now than
ignore it and
regret it
later.</div>
<div style="font-size:15px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:15px">It has
to do with the
ENFORCEMENT of
the Ordinance.
In other
words, we need
to give our
Ordinance the
proper teeth
with which a
judge MUST
(not just MAY)
enforce the
Ordinance and
thus dissuade
those who
would break
the law.</div>
<div style="font-size:15px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:15px">Barry
Vogel pointed
this problem
out before,
but
then Norman de
Vall raised
the concern
again. And
Charles
Wood responded
with <span style="font-size:medium">“I
don't think
that simple
use of the
word "offense"
makes it
unenforceable,
it just </span><span style="font-size:medium"><b>gives
the judge too
much latitude</b> to
set the fine
at whatever
level he or
she pleases.<b> It
could be
$1/day. </b></span><span style="font-size:14px"><span style="letter-spacing:0px"><font style="font-size:15px" size="3">The
jury decides
the facts
(guilty or
not-guilty), </font></span>Judges
interpret the
law (amount
for the fine).</span><span style="font-size:medium"><b>"</b></span><span style="font-size:medium">
They all
agree, we</span> need
to be more
specific and
strong in the
enforcement
clause. </div>
<br>
<div style="font-size:15px">So
this is
Barry's
suggestion, as
best I recall
: </div>
<div style="font-size:17px">Sec.
4(a). </div>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:6px;margin-left:0px;font:normal normal normal 12px/normal Arial;font-size:15px"><font style="font-size:17px" size="3"><span style="letter-spacing:0px">Any
corporation,
government or
natural person
that violates
any
prohibition of
this Ordinance
shall be
guilty of a</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"> most
serious
misdemeanor
offense </span><span style="letter-spacing:0px"> and,
upon
conviction
thereof, shall
be sentenced
to </span></font><span style="font-size:17px">go to
prison for one
year and
shall </span><span style="font-size:17px">pay a
fine of
$10,000 for
each
violation.
Each time the
pump is turned
on, and each
stroke of the
pump down and
up shall be a
separate
violation, and
violation of
each section
of this
Ordinance
shall count as
a separate
violation.
Courts shall
grant no
probation.</span></p>
<div style="font-size:16px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:16px">Is
there any
strong
opposition to
this change in
sec.4(a)? The
lawyers at
CELDF (or you)
may fiddle
with the
language or
the fine, but
we need
agreement by
tomorrow, so
we can
re-submit
asap.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On a
second issue:</div>
<div>Sec. 4
(b) shall we
strike out "or
any resident
of the County<b><i> "
and later "or
the
resident..."
?????</i></b></div>
<div><b><i>Bus
and Prof Code
17200 recently
took away the
citizen's
right to take
enforcement
action. Ben
felt we should
claim this
right anyway,
since it's
just another
slow erosion
of our rights.
But Barry
thinks we
shouldn't risk
the ordinance
over this.
So, should we
leave it in or
take it out?</i></b></div>
<div><b><i><br>
</i></b></div>
<div style="font-size:16px">There
will be a
cost. We'll
have to pay
the $200 fee
again (which
is refunded
when we
qualify for
the ballot).
But we'll
forfeit the
first $200.
And there will
be some delay.
But since I
doubt it will
change the
title or
summary, it
could be a
fast
turnaround. </div>
<div style="font-size:16px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:16px">Let's
do this right.
A little
additional
cost, a little
delay. The
hurry isn't as
great as the
need to get it
right and have
a strong
ordinance.</div>
<div style="font-size:16px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:16px">So
shall we make
the change to
4a? and keep
or delete
citizen
enforcement in
4b?</div>
<div style="font-size:15px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:15px">Karina</div>
<div style="font-size:15px"><br>
</div>
<div style="font-size:15px"><br>
</div>
</div>
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